Welcome to the Erin Davis Show
today I have a very special guest with me
Alison Shami is the imposter expert
Imposter Syndrome expert
she helps high performing individuals and teams
organizations institutions all around the world
really understand and navigate
and then conquer Imposter Syndrome
so they unlock their true potential
know their worth and own their success
so welcome Allison
I am so very grateful for you to be here today
thank you Aaron
I'm so happy to be chatting with you
can you just um
give me a bit of an insight into you
your background
where this book Conquer Your Imposter has come from
sure so in my previous life
as I like to talk about it
which is before 2,019
I had a long corporate career
predominantly in the technology space
and for a decade of that previous career
I experienced debilitating imposter syndrome
and so it's a very personal
and professional relationship
I have with imposter syndrome
and it was my own journey
my own story
and a very debilitating episode that happened
at the end of 2013 when I was in that corporate career
and that really caused me to be where I am today
and so fast forward to 2019
and I made the decision to leave my corporate career
and step into the full time world of working
with imposter syndrome
and then my expertise has really spanned from there
so the obsession with imposter syndrome came
as I said
in 20 started in 2013 when I had a debilitating episode
and that was the beginning of this new journey
and this is what I do now all around the world
and have for the last six and a half years
and the book you know
released this year I'm
I'm very proud of that piece of work and it is
you know a culmination of global insights
um gender diverse input and stories
because imposter syndrome
is something that does not discriminate
and I'm really excited that that's come out this year
and is you know
an additional extension of my work
so I guess in a in a snapshot
I say to everyone
that I have walked the personal journey
with imposter syndrome and I have overcome that
and that has LED to the ongoing professional expertise
so um
I've lived it I know what it feels like
and the final thing I'll say is that
my experience with imposter syndrome
was quite debilitating
but I wanna share this with everyone who's listening um
to this is that there is a scale of imposter syndrome
so you it's something
you know
you might experience irregularly or at certain times
or it may be something that shows up every single day
um or
or you know frequently um
as it did for me so as I share parts of my story today
you might find similarities in it
or your story might be slightly different
and that's okay um
but the purpose of why I love coming on
you know podcast and speaking to people like you
Aaron
is just to give evidence based incredible information
and hopefully that helps all of you take from that what
what is relatable to you and then obviously
be able to use that in ways that can help you
hmm so
let's take a step back what is imposter syndrome
and I know that
that is a very broad thing that shows up
like you said very differently for a lot of people
but how do it
like in imposter syndrome gets talked about a lot
but what what is it
what does it look like yeah
it's a very good question
and I'm glad you brought it up actually
because the biggest
essentially bastardization for a better word of
and I talk about this in the book
as you know Aaron
of imposter syndrome is its actual definition
and it gets sort of blended into other things
and it gets diluted
and it sort of becomes a little bit of a mixed bag
you know for
for a better word
and that's confusing cause then people don't know got
you know am I having an imposter experience
is it another fear or doubt etc
so to clarify for you what imposter syndrome is
is when you the individual
believes you're some kind of intellectual fake
fanny or fraud
despite evidence of competence and success
and so what do I mean by that
I mean
that you have a high degree of competency and skill
you're qualified you're talented
you're doing the job right now
you're stepping up
but you don't believe you belong in the room
you don't believe that you're actually as competent
capable and successful as everybody else around you
perceives you to be
because they are looking at the evidence
of your competence and success
and you are ignoring the evidence
you're not internalizing it
so instead you walk around saying to yourself
oh gosh I'm a I'm a fake
I'm a fraud
it's only a matter of time before they find out
or expose me as not being good enough
qualified enough smart enough
worthy enough to be in the room
or to be doing the job right now
or to be growing my finances and investing
so it's a pesky sense of intellectual fraudulence
despite and this is the real key differentiation
despite evidence of success and competence
so unfortunately imposter syndrome is only reserved
for those of us that are talented qualified
capable intelligent and are doing the work
real imposters in the world and the real people who BS
their way through things or who are genuinely fake
do not experience imposter syndrome
that's the irony of it and so that is its definition
I of course go into that um
you know and the keyhole marks in the book
but that's what it is
and the way that it makes us talk to ourselves
so if you're sitting there in situations
and you're like I don't belong in this room
who am I to be growing my wealth or leading this team
you know why would anyone want to listen to me
I have no value to add
we've crossed the line into imposter territory
because you have earned your place in the room
or to do whatever you want to do
but that's not the story you're telling yourself
and so that's really where we wanna start with
imposter syndrome so where does that story come from
as it comes from our past
yeah yeah
you're qualified you're experienced
you've got runs on the board
yet you still feel these these things
where does that imposter syndrome come from
yes we mentioned the keyword there
and I said it and you said it as well is story
so you know Aaron
I've
I've really covered this in the first two chapters
of the book as well
to just set the scene cause it's super important
and I'm I'm glad you've brought it up now
but the difference between
someone who's experiencing imposter syndrome
which is estimated to be about 70% of us
so it is the majority of us
but it is not all of us
and that's why the definition and the distinctions
are very important
because you can experience self doubt
you can experience another fear
like fear of public speaking
fear of rejection fear of not being liked
just to some examples
and they're not necessarily tied to imposter syndrome
however if you're experiencing imposter syndrome
you're likely to have those other elements
you'll definitely doubt yourself
and then you have these other fear based responses okay
so understanding is really important
but back to your question
the keyword there is story
so if you're experiencing imposter syndrome
you're telling yourself a very different story
you're talking yourself out of the room
or out of the opportunity
even though you deserve it
verse someone who doesn't have imposter syndrome
who's sitting in the same scenario
saying to themselves yeah
I've worked hard like I deserve to be here
let's have a go at this
you know I can do it that sort of thing
so the language in the story we tell ourselves changes
the story with imposter syndrome
predominantly stems
from our childhood or adolescent years
not in everyone but the majority
some stories commence when we've passed the age of 18
19
and so the stories stem from experiences
and environmental factors from our past
so let me just use myself as an example
and of course there's other case studies in the book
and happy to hear your views on this Aron
or you know what you've heard in other people
but for me
my imposter syndrome was created by my own mother
so I grew up in some really tough circumstances
which I won't go into now
but I I do write about some of it in
in the book
and I grew up with this sense that I wasn't worthy
you know I was mistreated
I was on the end of some horrible stuff
and because that was you know
um driven by my own mother
I grew up with this story that hey
if my own mother doesn't love me or treat me well
or does this to me
or allows these things to happen to me
then how good or worthy could I really be
and so that story stayed front of mine
and then went sort of back of mind as I grew up
but it was always there sitting in the back of my mind
right sitting in the
sitting in that that deep part
driving really my perception of myself
so it's you know
that's really then
what LED the imposter syndrome to come out
and so no matter how successful I became
how competent I was
how much money I was earning in my corporate career
I would have these moments
where the team went home at night
or I was on the train on the way home
and I'd say to myself
it's only a matter of time before my boss finds out I
I don't deserve to be here
he's going to work out he's hired the wrong person
or they're going to realize
they're paying me too much money
I mean who am I to deserve
you know this salary
I'm not even smart enough
to be here so this story that was planted by my mother
which made me question my worth
I carried with me for a long time
and it wasn't until 2014
that I started to unpack that story
so that's one example
it is my example using myself as a case study
but there are many examples like that
where something has happened in our past
it has made us feel less than
and that feeling of less than
is what manifests into imposter syndrome
for a lot of us again
not everyone but a lot of us
hmm that's really interesting
like I resonate with that so much
the the part for me is
I don't really recognize what the story is
of where it came from I grew up in a home
where I never felt like I was not enough
or not worthy or not deserving
yet in my career I always had that feeling of well
they'll find out I don't know enough there's um
you know they're going to find the same as you
I don't deserve this salary
I don't deserve this they're gonna find it
and I think it really highlighted to me
when I left a very long term career of Almost 30 years
doing accounting thinking that well
I don't know how to do accounting
I can't do it anywhere else
it kept me playing small
thinking that I couldn't go anywhere else to do it
because I didn't know what I was doing
yet when I took that step
it was like ah okay
well it's just accounting
I can do it it is something that I can do
but it came from that fear of um
they'll find out they don't know
I don't know what I'm doing
so I suppose that's you know
everybody's story in relation to that imposter syndrome
is is different
but you have those underlying
classic imposter syndrome behaviours
yes that's right
and so we call it like an origin story
but the origin story as I shared earlier
doesn't have to stem from childhood or adolescent years
it does for majority of us
like I said but not all
so you just
it's a perfect example of what you just said that
but somewhere along the line
you started to question yourself
and we don't have to do this now in time
but I know if you and you might have
if you step away and you think OK
and this is what I would encourage you to do
or anyone listening if you're trying to figure out OK
it could be what's my story
or it could be hey
when did this start
or when did I just start to question myself differently
you know think of myself differently
I always say to everyone you know
just make a tea or coffee
and carve out a little 15 minute space for yourself
and just have a think or brainstorm or
you know dump down in a journal
when did this start so
it's almost like an imposter timeline
that I talk about with my clients
and I say
when did you start questioning yourself differently
or questioning yourself
in a way that had a negative connotation right
that made you sort of pause and go
oh can I really do this
and question worth question competence
these sorts of things
and then what they can do is pinpoint down
almost like this little timeline or blueprint
and there is always this point where
it could be a type of role
it could be a certain amount of tenure in a role
it can be a meeting you're sitting in
in a colleague or a boss or whoever
an industry peer has sort of said something
and it can just be this little tweak
and then on top of that it can be at the timing of it
and so what do I mean by that is
and you would have seen Aaron
cause I know you've nearly finished the book
in the early chapters of the book
I talk about identity right
and I talk about our three selves
like self worth self esteem
self confidence
and how they interplay for imposter syndrome
but this aspect of identity and as individuals
and as women
just talking to women uh
for for the moment
our identities are always evolving
and women
traditionally have more identity shifts than men
so even though women and men or if you're in a
a couple or a partnership or somebody you know has a
has a baby and we become parents
women feel parenthood different to men right
and vice versa
women go through different transitions in careers
different hormonal changes and all these aspects
so where I'm going with this is
is where we're at in our evolution as a person
so for example everyone listening to this
you're not the same at 30 that you were at 20
and you're not the same at 40 that you were at 30
or you're not the same as 35 as you were at 30 OK
you can insert whatever interval you want
the point is we're always evolving
and so back to what I was saying earlier
is when this sort of imposter moment comes
but where you're at in your life or your life cycle
can also mean that it's an imposter moment
or it can compound it
and turn it into full blown imposter syndrome
where the impact is really great
and so the takeaway is sit back reflect on this
if this is relevant to you say okay
when did this start who was involved
where was I what else was going on in my life
and I talk about this 360 degree view
of imposter syndrome
and it's really important to know that
you are not one dimensional
and neither is your imposter experience
and so when we look at it from that perspective
we start to step out of this dark cloud or the shadow
you know that I call imposter syndrome
because it can kind of hover over us
and we can think oh gosh
is this just gonna follow me my whole career
can I ever get out of this
and when we start putting in these thought points
and these little actions
we start to chip away at it like any other project
and go okay
now I'm seeing this and when we bring clarity
we start to move through the fear based behaviours
and it's it's a it's an incredible thing to do
so that's just a little exercise for you all
and you can do that for imposter syndrome
or any other fear and doubt right
if you're doubting yourself for any reason
if you're having a fear I can't stress enough
the origin of that moment
the beginning moment
when that started is very crucial to understand
not because you have to sit in it
for the next three months
and unpack it
although some people like to do that
but just so you know why because conscious awareness
as I'm sure you'll agree there and it's so important
yeah right
we can't stay in the back of our heads going oh
maybe it's this maybe it's that that doesn't help us
we need to go it was it was that period
it was last year when I sat in a meeting with Sally
or Bruce and they said this and
and it made me feel x
and my behaviour changed from there
that clarity is
I can't stress enough to you is very important
and when my clients come to me
so I coach high performers all around the world
through imposter syndrome
and these are the exercises we do together
and I get down to the specific moment in time
because that is the seed
and we need to understand what that seed has LED to
and then we need to reverse engineer that
and break that cycle so realize I shared a lot there
but I know if you're all listening to this
you can pause and rewind if I've gone a bit fast
but it's really important
I wanna get this context into this episode for you so
you know hopefully
you can pull the value nuggets that matter to you
hmm and I think um
I as you were saying that
I was like
is it really important to know exactly where it starts
yes but yes
you said yes it is really important to
to to know that
and I was just thinking as you were saying
for my situation like trying
just trying to think back as to
when did that actually start
what what were the moments
and I I will definitely sit with that for longer
because I
sort of know around the time of when it was happening
or where it started to first show up
but to pinpoint you know
the the circumstances
I'm really curious to see what was happening
in my life at that time um
but then also what was happening in my career as well
so how do you know
like
if we bring this back to money and imposter syndrome
in relation to how do we show up with our money
um there's a lot of women
who feel like they're bad with money
or they can't do money
or they shouldn't earn this amount of money
what do you see
some sort of connection with
money and imposter syndrome
there can be so it's a great question
I wanna highlight as well that like money
women in money women growing wealth
finance is one of my favourite topics
I am a huge and that's obviously
you know
we got to meet at a great event with Jane Collective
and I love the work that you're doing
so thanks again for
for bringing me into this conversation
and I can't talk about this stuff enough
you know we could be talking
we could be talking all day about this because
you know seeing women um
define what success means to them
what money or finances is attached to that
and then being able to go after that is a
is a real passion of mine and hit whatever goals we
we set for ourselves but back
back to the original part of your question
we know from the past I think we all know as women that
you know
there are many conscious and subconscious stories
fed to women about money
and there are gender biases that come in
when it comes to money and stories around money
and a women really good with money or growing wealth
and these stories being planted in the past
we know
through gender biases that have existed through time
but unfortunately sometimes they stick right
and and when we talk about stories
money stories are really important right
so if we're telling ourselves we're not good with money
or if we're telling ourselves
we can't learn how to invest
or how to be better with our money
how to make more money right
all these sorts of things
we're going to be driven by the story we tell ourselves
period whether imposter syndrome is in the mix or not
so the first thing I'll say to you all is understand
and from my perspective
it's what does success look like for you in general
and then what does this success look like with money
or finances and being compassionate with yourself
to know that your version of success
may or may not be like somebody else's
because I think there's a lot of pressure on women
as well in various states from comparison
which is a self sabotaging behaviour
and that can come in on money and finances as well
right something to to think about
but if imposter syndrome is in the mix
just to start here
it's gonna have you questioning so for example
you might be earning great money now
but imposter syndrome is going to tell you
you don't deserve that money that you're earning
or when you can come up
when you are available for a promotion
or some sort of advancement
or to negotiate a salary a deal a contract
an upgrade
etcetera it will rob you from your ability to do that
right and so you'll you'll say to yourself
the story you tell yourself is well
I'm not worthy of that rate increase
or I'm not worthy to charge that retainer
or I can't go in there and negotiate a
10 thousand dollar increase with my boss because
I mean you know
who am I to do that
and my colleagues are gonna tell me
I don't deserve it so
you're going to start telling yourself
these stories that are not anchored in any evidence
to begin with
but they're gonna stop you from being paid
what you're worth or negotiating your worth
but also on the flip side of that
something very important
is that there's still might be someone around you
and I wanna acknowledge this
who's telling you
you're not worth it so imposter syndrome yes
we've got this story going on inside
but you didn't create that story right
you're exacerbating it within yourself
but something has happened in the environment
from your past
or from last week that is exacerbating that story
and I know this with women and money
and unfortunately
I have witnessed and experienced this many times
sometimes there is somebody else telling that woman
you don't deserve this
who are you to think that you can charge for that
you know etcetera
so if somebody else has been feeding you that negative
story
please don't ignore that that is playing into this
but I show women how we can control that narrative
understand it's not our fault
not self blame
but utilize the tools to take control of that narrative
and move forward
and be able to do whatever we want to do
with our money or finances
and then accept that
internalize that and be happy with it
but imposter syndrome in the mix
as I said is gonna help make you question your worth
it's gonna make you hesitate
and that has a financial impact
it may also block you from again
putting your hand up for new opportunities
for launching a new business line
for engaging with a financial advisor
or accountant or wealth manager
it's gonna block you from
engaging with people who can help you
and as you can start to see and hear
these are all like dominos
which are affecting your money story
your financial setup you know
and you will talk yourself out of spaces and you'll say
well now
for example
I know a lot of women who want to understand investing
you know investing their money
whether it's stocks whether it's property
whatever may be out there
and they tell themselves a story and say well
you know I'm just not good with numbers
or I'm just not gonna get it
I find it difficult and so
you know and if I have a meeting or if I call Aaron or
or whatever it is
I'm just gonna look like a fool you know
I'm I'm gonna look stupid in their eyes and again
this can be imposter syndrome talking
so the takeaway is it does have financial implications
I love talking about the financial implications
because it is the arm
that many people don't talk about
so with imposter syndrome
we talk about emotional impact
we talk about the physical impact stress anxiety
burnout lack of sleep
etcetera that can come you know
and we talk about the mental of course
the mental toll of imposter syndrome
but the fourth one
and it's why it's in my book is the Financial Impact
so just wanted to share that I
I guess is as an umbrella to the
to answer your questions
but happy to get more specific
there's anything you
or you believe your listeners want to know yeah
I suppose it um
I think I see it coming from that place of well
I can't manage money I'm not good with managing money
um I can't charge that or I can't put my prices up
or nobody has any money to pay me
but really there's
you know so many people out there have money available
but we're limiting ourselves
because we don't feel like we can charge that
or we're worth charging that
or we deserve to be charging those sort of prices
and I think for me it really showed up with um
asking for that pay rise every June
we would come along and we'd have to justify
how much do you think that pay rise is worth
and then somebody on the other end of the table
and for us um
being in that traditional accounting space
it was men on the other side of the table saying well
no I think you're worth this
and that was really hard I suppose
growing up in that space of well
somebody's telling me what I'm worth
I don't really know I don't know what to do
I don't know how to ask and that played into well
can I ask for this is that too much
yeah and I think you raised a good
a a good element there around this notion of worth
and that's obviously central to the work that I do and
and one thing that women and
and I help them with this
but have been notorious at is outsourcing our worth
so your self worth and what you are worth
what you can charge uh
rate salary
etcetera is always the individuals decision and control
so we cannot outsource our worth
our self worth is not a group decision
which is a quote that I love
it's not mine
and I actually don't know who came up with that quote
but I love it right
our self worth is not a group um decision
and so what as you know
in the past for various reasons like you mentioned
and certainly being the only woman in the room
or having you know
more men on the other side and these sorts of things
there's all kinds of environmental factors
that have played into this
as I open this part of a chat with
around old money stories around gender bias right
so that some of those unfortunately are still there
we're all aware of it from the past
I'm sure a lot of you listening to this
know that up until the late 1970s
women in America
couldn't even have a credit card in their name
and we're talking about America
a western first world country right
until the late 1970s
women couldn't have a lot of financial assets
in their own name so of course we've come a long way
but also that's not that long ago
no it's not that long ago
is it right
so a lot of us were like you know
I was born in 83 so I wasn't alive in the 70s
I'm no a lot of you were listening to this right
so yeah so it's just important contextually
I bring that up because we don't want to forget
about those things
but then bringing the control to the
now back to what I'm saying is that women
we need to understand
that our worth can only be determined by us
and that doesn't mean
we're not copying it from the environment
there's not people trying to tell us what we're worth
and I want to be very clear on this
that there's always going to be somebody
always telling you you're not worth it
what I say and say to my clients is
don't let it be you
hmm but no matter how much money you are paid
or you invest
or as you start on your trajectory of financial growth
wherever you're at whatever role that you're in
or perhaps you're going out on your own
or you're just growing your
finance and investment portfolio
I'm gonna say this again
there's always going to be someone
who will question your worth
and in fact just me last week I had a proposal
I'm in a negotiation with a large go global client
headquartered in London
and I can't share too much on this
but I I wanna be honest where
they had questioned
my rate on a particular piece of work
this is a rate I use globally
a rate that more than 200 global clients have paid
and this client in a direct
but not so direct way
attempted to tell me that myself or no
no presenter was worth my rate what did I do
I politely responded back to the communication
and I withdrew my proposal
hmm because if I am not even working with a client yet
and they are questioning my
my rate
or trying to essentially screw me down on a rate that
again hundreds of global clients have paid
that's not a client for me
because I am the one who determines my worth
I'm the one who knows the quality of work I produce
and I'm the one who knows
other people have paid for that work
and are happy right
we can do all this in any sense
but I just wanna share a real example
so it's important to note that
there's always gonna be somebody talking us down
we need to ensure it's not us
and then however and that's a skill to learn
the final part I wanna say that's a skill right
we don't just wake up and have that
I have learnt it I have grown it like we all can
but you said something else really important now
and I wanna quickly touch on is um
you know getting ready for those um
let's just call it salary negotiation conversations
if I can just use your example um
which I think is relatable in
in many spheres is that so much goes in
before the conversation happens
so what I like to share with individuals is
when you're going into a financial negotiation
a pay rise every June like you mentioned
that it's so important to arm yourself with facts
with data
with a history of why you believe you're eligible for
X increase now
that doesn't mean that the other person
on the other side of the table
will still not dispute you
that's not what I'm saying
but it's really important that we capture evidence
on our side that we internalize that evidence
and if imposter syndrome's in the driver's seat
it's gonna block you from doing this
which is why it's so important
if you're experiencing imposter syndrome
to get control of it
because this is one type of situation
it will show up in if it exists
and then instead of being able to stand your ground
and have a debate on said pay rise
what will happen is we're likely to back away
right and this includes men as well
we'll be clear this is not just about women
men experiencing imposter syndrome
will back away from financial situations
as well so I just want to be clear on that
this is not a women versus men etcetera
but I also want to talk to the nuances
and the experiences that I have seen
so there is work that needs to be done
in the lead up to the preparation
and as I've always said
if you were negotiating anything financially
the negotiation is the last stage
not the first stage of the conversation
so the work the evidence capture
the gearing up for the meeting
the rehearsal the what are my key points
what am I going to say what am I debating
what am I ready for are crucial again
I wanna be clear
it doesn't mean someone won't be on the other side
still trying to talk you down
it will happen right
it will happen not all the time
but it will happen but if we can get our ducks in a row
this is what I say to my clients
and if we can ensure that imposter syndrome
is not skewing our vision in that meeting
then no matter what happens
we will come out with a clear perspective
whether we got the result we wanted or not
and then we will be in control
of the next decision that we make
and that decision may be
I've got to set myself up better next time
or I feel like I am genuinely hard done by here
perhaps
I have reached the Pinnacle at this organization
because they're not going to pay me what I'm worth
and I know this is a hard decision
but sometimes we have to exit and it sucks
I want to be very clear but as long as we have clarity
we can make a clear decision
and that ultimately is for the best hmm
and so if our brains are wired for self doubt
and we've got these stories playing in um
how
how do we go about rewiring that for that self value
so then like in that practical terms
we can go into that negotiation
whether it's a pay rise or a business deal
contracts and and really own our abilities and our um
our worth
so what are some practical things that we can do there
well the first the first step is there's two elements
there's actually three elements on that
which link into Chapter 3 of the book um
and trilogy of selves so we talk about self worth
self esteem and self confidence
and for a lot of women in particular
or just people in commentary across the internet
or the world they blend all of these things together
and they are three very distinct things
so self worth is your view and love of yourself
you as an individual it's what you think about yourself
it's what you admire about yourself
it's who you are as a person before any opinion title
work experience so it is your foundation
self esteem is when you bring in external work
and the opinions of others
and self confidence is the action you take
and that's how you build confidence
so these things layer upon each other
but back to your question
the first and most critical part of this is
anchoring in self worth and so
there is an exercise in my book where I talk
and I ask the question going
who are you so one exercise I get my clients to do
and I encourage you all to do
this and Aaron it is in the book
so perhaps you could put it in your show notes
or share a picture with your community from that
cause I'd love them to have access to this
and I want anyone this is thinking
oh my goodness
you gotta buy the book or they'll recommend it
I don't want you to think
but there's this exercise where I say
and I use this in all my clients
where I get them to tell me who they are
but the the
the kicker here is that when you tell me who you are
you can't mention your job title
your qualifications
any work experience or any of these external things
you have to tell me who you are as a person right
you have to describe what matters to you
what and what your values are
what your beliefs are how you perceive yourself
how you move through the world
now this is critical because these are your anchors
right these are the foundations
and so
understanding what it means for you to feel worthy
for you to know I am worth this
I belong in this room sure
I'm still learning and growing
and I've got goals and desires and I'm evolving
absolutely
but I'm enough as I am now and as I move through
it's very critical that that's where we start
and then on top of that
the second part of your question is
we need to build the skills and the confidence
so we need to work on how we articulate our value
how we negotiate our worth
how we have constructive conversations at work
what we might say in this example
in a salary negotiation
or if we want to go and speak to a money
or finance expert about growing wealth
or a portfolio or etcetera
or go and get going and getting a great accountant
so we can be across that better
so we know how to manoeuvre things financially
so we need to start with self worth
and exercise of knowing who we are
what we believe in what values uphold us
and then we need to work on acquiring the skills
why I started in that order is
if you just work on acquiring the skills
of course that adds value
but it will not anchor you in worth
because if you don't center yourself in worth
and knowing I work
I'm worth it I belong in this room
I have worked my bum off to be here
I deserve this opportunity like anyone else
and now I'm going to have a crack at it
that's the story we have to be telling ourselves
in your language in your way
but that is the most critical
because what I see a lot of women do is they say to me
well Ali
I'll just go and get another qualification
I'll go and get another skill
I'll go and practice this
I'll go and do that that is wonderful
it helps
but it still won't make you be anchored in your self
worth and when we're not anchored in self worth
we become more easier we become more fragile
meaning somebody challenges us
someone sits across the table from us and says
I don't think you're worth that Aaron
if we have
yeah if we have done the anchoring in self worth
I want to be clear it doesn't mean that doesn't sting
right someone trying to talk you down
I'm not saying that
we just deflects off us like we're Teflon
it still hurts right
it's not nice however
it will not derail us
if we have done the work in anchoring in self worth
so have a look at these concepts
understand who you are what you're about
what you believe in what your value set is right
this is really important to anchoring against fear
and doubt and imposter syndrome
which is what we're talking about today
and then the skill development
is the second part of that important
but you need both
I talk a lot about that with my clients as well as in
I could just go and give you a budget or a spreadsheet
or I could just give you these tools
to manage your money better
but if you don't address those underlying thoughts
you have about yourself
the money stories that you've got going on
that code that you are operating on
those external things are not gonna stick
they may stick for a little bit
but they're not gonna be long term
and so I
I really love that that you lead with self worth first
because I think that
that's where the real change happens
because then you can
bring all of these external things in
and then they just amplify what
what you want and who you are already yes
it's it's so it's you're exactly right
and it's super important and I also want to be clear
that when I talk about self worth
it is relevant to men as well
so I think I see a lot of commentary out there
we talk about self worth
and people direct it toward women
and you know I've
I've given some examples that are
that are women based there
but I want to be clear that this impacts men as well
and it's the same situation that if a man comes to me
and he is struggling with imposter syndrome
and I do the same anchors
I'm like where are we at with what what's the story
what's the beliefs where did it start
what are your values are we living in those
or are you in an environment where you are
being bullied or harassed
around that or there's
you know toxic masculinity involved in other aspects
so I I want to be clear that we're not um
that this is not just about women however
we you know we want
to understand the impacts between the genders
and what makes a difference
because like you said which is an important point
often in career positions for many of us or financial
um aspects
we can be the only woman at the table
or one of very few women at the table
so we don't want to ignore that dynamic
but I also want you all to know
if you're listening to this that um
this is not just a women thing self worth
but it's understanding what it means for us
how it's playing out in our scenario um
and then we wanna be able to use our voice
so we can present and perform at our best
and to your point
create these new stories that are gonna push us forward
because Money Stories is a big one
as you know I know I'm preaching to the converted here
but I know in my work
and I know in my own financial history
that women are notorious at holding themselves back yes
environmental factors play a part
but there are often times
and I have witnessed this many times
I wanna share a quick story in my corporate career
when I was working in technology
I had five um
five promotions in a row
so you get the promotion you work for you
you know so I had this great trajectory of five
five promotions in a row where I went for it
and I got it
every single time I went for these promotions
I was the only woman
in the team that put my hand up for it
and I want to be very clear and I'm
I can be very honest with myself
I was not the most um qualified woman for the promotion
true story and I'd say to myself
why aren't my female colleagues
or at least one of them going for the
it was always me and like five guys right
or three guys and me
and I was successful and I got the promotion
so I kept going up through my technology companies
and then there became this gap
where women weren't coming up with me
and then obviously I worked to change that
but I'm sharing this story because at that time
when I was going for the promotions
each promotion involved a salary increase
and one particular jump at the time
was a 20 thousand dollar base increase in one jump
which back in the day I meant still big money now
but it was a huge thing right
it was a big roll I was the only woman
who threw her hand in the ring for that
and I thought I'm ready for this
do I have all of the skills
no but I've got
you know the majority of them and the rest I can learn
and I'm ambitious and I'm dedicated and I
I can do this right
you've got to be in it you've got to be in it to win it
and I just think back to that all the time right
so women in the past
have been traditionally
talking ourselves out of spaces
that we deserve to be in
and back to the topic of this podcast
that has huge financial implications
because if we're not going and stepping up
which we are have
are entitled to do and have earned the right to do
what happens
it creates and contributes to pay gaps as well
now I want to be clear
that is not the
that is not the reason that gender pay gaps exist
but I mean
we cost ourselves money and then all of a sudden
we end up in an organisation
where the men that we are working around
or the men doing the same thing as us
are all of a sudden on 10 15
20 k
whatever it may be more than us
then there's implications on super
and I'm sure you know the super gaps
Erin in your work and the stats around that
which are not great but a
but are improving
and they just ends up with financial gaps everywhere
and women suffer okay
we also know that in Australia
women over 50 years old are the fastest growing
unfortunately terribly fast group of homelessness
to do with these financial matters
they're running out of money
or they have been mistreated
ha you know fraud
fraud you know
had had
had all sorts of awful things going on
but it is a horrific stat to me
that
know that women in this country who are 50 or older
are the highest risk or of becoming homeless
that's that's horrendous
isn't it and it plays into all of these topics
of what we're talking about as
you know that self worth
that belief that you deserve to be in the room
you have a seat at the table
you have things to contribute
yet we hold ourselves back
because maybe
we don't tick all the boxes on the application form
or maybe where we're not feeling like we've
we deserve to be in the room
yet we we clearly are
we've got that evidence to show us
absolutely and
and again it all comes down to
you know the world
whether you are someone who is motivated by money
or not right
and there's no right or wrong there
we all need it we all need the amount that we need that
that aligns with our version of success
that gives us what we need
or our families what we need
or whoever in our life
and so I love seeing women focus on money again
whatever that means to them
because we all need it
we just cannot go through the world
and we know that with the cost of everything right now
where the world's at etcetera
that we need to understand it
and work with it more than ever
and so yes
from my perspective I want to ensure that clients
that imposter syndrome
is not getting in the way of impacting their finances
or money or that sort of thing
but then there's these broader
elements that we've spoken about today
but it comes back to just as a summary
the story we tell ourselves
so I know you mentioned we start with money stories
it's just so critical
because I can't stress to you all enough that it is
that that old saying and that cliche that you you
you are you become who you tell yourself you are
you know so you can and I
I use this all the time in my kinetics with my clients
you can talk yourself into a situation
through evidence I don't mean toxic positivity
I don't mean lying to yourself
you can anchor in evidence and say
I have earned my right to be here
I deserve to be in this conversation
I deserve to chat with people like Aaron
and expand my knowledge and my yeah
capacity to do more with my money and finances
or you can say I'm so stupid with money
I'm never gonna get it
I'm gonna look like a fool if I talk to her
they're just some examples right
but you can see the profound difference
that those stories have
and I cannot stress that enough
that the story drives the emotional response
the emotional response drives the behaviour
and if it is fear or negativity driving those things
the behaviour will be self sabotage
and as it sounds by its name
self sabotage not serving you not a good place to be
whether it is or isn't driven by imposter syndrome
still not a great place to be okay
we want conscious choices
we want clarity and we want self serving behaviours
that are moving us to our goal
whatever it may be
that's that's the game we want to be playing
not the fear based or imposter game
because you cannot win in that game
the impacts are great we need to shift focus
yeah so if somebody is listening to this and they
they are resonating
and can see themselves in what we're talking about
what's the first step to working through
imposter syndrome
so that it is not impact our financial wealth
our self worth um
and just you know our overall well being
yeah so the first step is
we must understand the story we're telling ourselves
that underpins the imposter syndrome
so if you're experiencing imposter syndrome
and we've shared some examples
you're saying to yourself
you know I'm not worthy of this opportunity
why would anyone want to listen to me
I have no value to add
I can't seek that help or support
because I'm going to sound stupid
so the story we're telling ourselves
and you can see in those exact examples
it's very personal it's very negative
it's very self deprecating
when imposter syndrome is in the driver's seat
we must intercept and redirect that story
which is part of my framework
which is in the book and we must create a new story
but it's what I call an evidence based statement
so what is that it's not a positive affirmation
they're different I wanna be clear though
I'm a big fan of positive affirmations
and if you do those already wonderful
keep going big fan
but it's not what I'm talking about here
so an evidence based statement
is when you create a new story
for yourself but it is anchored in the evidence
of what you have done so Aaron
in chapter 10 I'll read you one example in a moment
I've got a book here on my desk
but in chapter 10 of my book
where I'm getting to the tools
there are three evidence based statement examples
so even if anyone you wanted to
I'll leave it with you but if anyone wants to know
you can share it with them directly
or take a little picture of that page
but I'm gonna share for me just quickly one example
sure
what do I mean by an evidence based statement
let me just go to chapter 10 of my book
it's so funny because I wrote the book
and then when I'm specifically looking for something
it's funny how you just can't find it right
find it
okay so
let me give you an example of an evidence
based statement and of course
I realize you all don't have the context
before or after this in the book
but I think it will believe
it'll make sense
based on what we've shared in this episode
so when you're writing an evidence based statement
it must anchor in self worth
as well as confidence or skill aspects
okay so I'll give you an example of how this reads
so if you were telling yourself a story
and the story is I will never be as good as them right
or I will never which is which is an example they use
so you might be looking at your colleagues
you might be thinking about going for a pay rise
and the story you're telling yourself is
I will never be as good as them right
even though you are cause you're on their level already
that's what you're saying to yourself
so an example of how that can be redirected
in an evidence based statement is
I have unique strengths and I belong in this room
any other knowledge or skills can be acquired as I go
so I'll just pause on that again
so you'll notice in the evidence based statement
I highlight belonging
so self worth as well as my strengths
so I have unique strengths and I belong in the room
any other knowledge or skills can be acquired as I go
so just imagine for one moment
repeating that evidence based statement to yourself
anytime it's on chat uh
page 2 3 1 Aaron of the book of the printed copy 2
3 1 and there's other
there's a couple of other examples there as well
just in case you know you would like them or of course
you're welcome to use them yourself
so the evidence based statement is the first step
when you deliver when you create that statement
and when you repeat it to yourself
now it could be daily it could be weekly
it depends on you and your circumstance
you are telling yourself the new true story
there is nothing fake about that
there is no fluff there is no toxic positivity
it is a statement based on the evidence of who you are
and what you've done
and the fact that you belong in the room
so that is the first exercise to start with
and if you repeat again that statement to yourself
it will counteract that story
and it will begin to change
emotional responses and behaviours
and so again there's a couple of examples in the book
please note that those examples are specific
of how evidence based statements should be written
no fluff all evidence all based on reality
so it's something that you can anchor in
and that can drive you forward
so that's where I would start
um and then of course if you're interested in you know
I put a lot of free articles out there as well as
you know Aaron
so you know
if you're interested in learning more about my work
getting sort of coaching tips and pointers
you can head to the blog on my website um
or you can come connect on LinkedIn
and I do a weekly LinkedIn newsletter
so I do put a lot of free content out there
a lot of insights and tips
um and of course the book is available as well in print
in audio and in Kindle
so all price points that can be affordable
you know to most people
so I really recommend I mean
of course it's my book and I'm
I'm biased right
I'm sure you all know that
but I wrote the book because
and I think Aaron and I you and I
were talking about this before
we came on to the episode
the book is designed to be of course
expert insights and a global perspective
and what you'd all expect from an expert
but it was designed to be practical
it was designed to give you all the insights
the stories but the tools like okay
what can I do what has been proven to work
that is honestly in the book
and that's why I wrote it
so if you just engage with the book
at whatever price point suits you
and that's all you engage with from my work
it's going to give you key tools that you need
and that was important for me
to make the book a resource
that that could be utilized
and that could help you make a difference
so again
that's the honest truth of
of why I wrote the book but we start with the story
we reframe and redirect to an evidence based statement
and that's the most crucial thing you can do
amazing I know
like I said I haven't finished the book yet
but I keep referencing back
I have highlighted all throughout the book
all of these different parts as I read it
it's like yep
that resonates and I keep coming back to it
and I I have found it a
a great resource for myself
and that insight and also that um
not validation but recognition of well
these things that I have been feeling in the past
because I think I've played it down
like a lot of people do that go oh
well it's really not quite that serious
or it doesn't really quite matter
it's not really impacting me that much
but when I think I put all the little pieces together
of how I see myself the conversations I've had
um asking for what I'm worth
knowing what I'm worth yeah
I can see how all of those little pieces have dominoed
into where I am now and so
I love your book as
in that resource
to be able to go back and just revisit
because I think it brings up some stories
some emotions and then you just go back
and you look at them with a different lens
so thank you I am very
very grateful that I met you at the Gen
Collective event and you too
I was introduced to your work that way um
but I have really
enjoyed having this conversation with you
and reading your book too
thank you no
I truly appreciate that and
and likewise and thank you for leading the charge
on this conversation around money and finances
it's so important and as I said
a real passion of mine as well
and you know
if I can leave you all with with one thing I guess
you know
is this sort of summary of this brilliant conversation
is that notion that I said earlier um
you know that there'll always be somebody
who doesn't see your worth
don't let it be you and
and that goes for imposter of course
anchors beautifully for imposter syndrome
but just in general because again
I wanna be clear
that we're always going to go through life
and unfortunately
there's always gonna be that one person you know
sometimes it's it's our cousin you know
it can be when they're like
what what do you charge for your services or you know
there's always gonna be comments right
when none of us are exempt from that
you know the sort of but when
when we know who we are
what we're about and what we're doing
those comment those comments are just like okay
well you know it's good that you think that
but I I know what I'm worth enough
I go and and so you're able to move forward
you know you able are
you are able to become you know
far more resilient to it
and it will be less and less there
because you'll be in your zone of knowing your worth
and and what you're about
and this goes for self worth
but it goes for finances as well
because it is that notion
that we need to go after what we believe
we deserve and it's super important
you know to get a handle on money and finances
and what it means to you and it's I
I think there is no more you know
it's outside of health of course
and wellness of us and our family
understanding your finances
and providing a security level to yourself
whatever that means again
to you in your needs and goals and
and lifestyle is so important
so thanks for having me Aaron
it's been a pleasure amazing
so where can people find you
you did mention your website
I will put all the links there
but
where's the best place for people to connect with you
yes thank you
well on social media um
LinkedIn and I post a lot of content there posts
you know free newsletters
so if you're on LinkedIn please come connect
Alison Shermier also on Instagram
Alison Shermier I'm very easy to find
it's just my name across the internet um
and if you're interested in my weekly newsletter
you can connect on my website and sign up for that
or I've got the LinkedIn one as well
please note they're two different newsletters
so I I push out different content
but please come connect in some way
and let me know what you think
and um
if you are listening to this
and you have questions to me
please reach out on one of those platforms
let me know you know
you know Aaron
or you've been listening to this
and ask me your question
Aaron knows I will get back to you
I will answer it I will
you know help you in the right direction
um but don't hesitate to connect and um
and as I said if you want a tool
a toolkit I highly recommend the book
it's it's print audio
all audio platforms Kindle if you prefer
digital or of course the print edition that um
Erin's got in her hands as well
everywhere you can buy your books
uh Conquer Impostor is available
so that's the you're it's easy to find
which I you know
I like to say so thank you
amazing amazing
alright well
thank you very much Allison for this amazing insight
I absolutely agree
impostor syndrome and financial intelligence
financial independence financial knowledge
they are just so so important
so I love having this conversation
and reach out to Allison if you need some help